Abandon All Fear

What nobody else seems to be saying…

[Atheism] How To Destroy Christianity

Posted by Lex Fear on April 12, 2008

I’m pretty fed up of the same circular arguments and debates going round and round the tubes. Based on logical fallacies, false premises and rabid hate.

So listen closely I’m about to reveal the truth that Christians don’t want you to know. It’s hidden in their own book, the bible, and all you need to do is point out the evidence, one simple line, and you will end their faith. You will completely decimate it.

There is no need to mention Occam’s Razor, the 3rd law of thermodynamics, the Jesus Seminar, logic and reason, counter-arguments, semantics, OT eschatology, Witty Diatribes, Pseudoscience, the Da Vinci code, the FSM or the celestial teapot.

It was written long ago by one of the founders of Christianity, hidden in plain sight, the means to bring Christianity and belief in Jesus crashing to the ground. Simply prove this and even the most God-fearing, bible-bashing fundie will be stumped.

Here is the verse, from 1 Corinthians 15:13-16 of the New Testament, written by Paul:

“If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile;”

It’s that simple. If there is no resurrection of the dead, no resurrection of Jesus Christ, then their words are false and faith is futile.

If you want to rid the world of Christianity, all you have to do is prove that Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead. Should be an easy task, right?

Watch the faith drain from their eyes and their expression fill with doubt… go get ’em tiger!

Advertisements

24 Responses to “[Atheism] How To Destroy Christianity”

  1. Jon Acuff said

    brilliant feedback on gloria estefan. loved it

  2. Gayle said

    Would you find it tempting to give up Christianity because of 1 Corinthians 15:13-16?

  3. Alex Fear said

    I think that this is the crux of gospel. Think about it. Many people don’t have a problem that some guy called Jesus may have existed 2000+ years ago. A good, moral teacher who got framed. They could even believe he is the founder of some cult that was given way too much attention. That his teachings were somehow taken out of context or warped… did he really say he was the “son” of God?

    This is where Paul is drawing a line. He’s saying look, if this bloke called Jesus didn’t come back to life then we’re basically propagating a lie. We’ve scammed you, ripped you off. It’s the point at which you have to draw a line and believe it or dismiss it.

    It’s incredibly simple, it’s incredibly stupid, it’s ludicrous. It’s a dare, it’s laying down a challenge. Prove it wrong, you’ve proved the whole Christian gospel is a lie.

    It’s at this point you have to ask, why would someone who is trying to pull the wool over your eyes, offer such an ridiculous and easy way to dismiss it? Why foolishly base your argument on something that is so difficult to prove (ie. a man coming back to life). When it was quite obvious, even at the time, that the Jewish authorities were saying the disciples stole the body.

    It’s something only a crazy man would believe in, and an idiot would try to argue.

  4. Gayle said

    Yes, something only a crazy man would believe. And two thousand years later, some still believe it – even more crazy!

  5. StefZ said

    …and the reason why I could never personally embrace mainstream Christianity

    Suggesting that disbelievers prove that something incredible didn’t happen 2,000 years ago, rather than proving that it did, is like suggesting that people disprove the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn)

    And even is someone did find a way to disprove Christ’s physical resurrection I think that would only mean the end of particular strains of Christianity anyway. Maybe some of the variations of Christianity suppressed by Paul and his followers could see the light of day again

    Many of Christ’s core teachings would still resonate and have validity if resurrection were spiritual rather than physical or even if there was no resurrection at all. Why should those teachings be tarnished if it turns out that some kind of stunt was played with his body? And shouldn’t living a decent life be a worthwhile goal in itself?

    A system of treats and punishments is something you would use when training a dog or a small child. If humans really are something more than animals shouldn’t we be behaving on a higher level than that?

  6. Alex Fear said

    Stef, your comment raises many points of discussion, some I wouldn’t even be able to begin arguing with.

    However, if you’ll permit me to address just two of those points.

    The funny thing is, I’m not suggesting at all someone prove something incredible didn’t happen 2,000 years ago. Actually it’s the writer of this section of the bible who is asking people then and indeed 1,900 years down the line to believe it.

    It’s a bit rich someone should try to prove either way that this did or did not happen approx. 2000 years ago. However the incredible event when it was first being spread and told was not long after the event, where it would have faced much more scrutiny and ridicule.

    Second point, ironically it’s the parts which are left out of the compilation that we now know as present-day Bible (such as the apocrypha) which sometimes contain even wilder and contradictory claims.

    One such brand of religion that arose from Christianity and Judaism is Islam. Whilst I risk offending Muslims as to suggest it’s another ‘brand’ of Christianity, it certainly contains a much more watered down and believable account of the man Jesus Christ and takes much of it’s teaching and understanding of God from both of these religions that came before it.

    What’s sad and pathetic is that I doubt most “mainstream” Christians do believe in the resurrection (I will take ‘mainstream’ to be those that ascribe to the notion that a belief in God and Western values makes you Christian). I mean, I doubt many have considered the implications of believing and asking others to believe that a man rose from the dead.

  7. StefZ said

    FWIW I personally agree with your take on Islam – both in its presentation of (and respect for) Jesus as a Man (not God) and its relationship to Christianity.

    This is why the often used term ‘Judeo-Christian’ (as opposed to something more inclusive and accurate such as ‘Abrahamic’) sets my teeth on edge, big time. Islam at least acknowledges Jesus as a Prophet, whereas Judaism rejects him as an impostor. ‘Judeo-Christian’ is a political term and a deceitful one at that

    There’s so much common ground between Islam and Christianity and yet so many evil SoBs looking to push earthly agendas by playing up, and making up, differences between the two faiths.

    And more to the point, so many atheists who are willing to swallow the BS that all the grief going on in the world is about religion when that clearly isn’t the underlying cause

  8. lwtc247 said

    I don’t think Christianity rests on Jesus being ressurrected or not. Christianity to me is the following of his teachings.

    When did Jesus every say his teachings are relient upon his death? That connection was made by others, not Jesus.

    It is similiar to the imposition of the claim Jesus is in the trinity sence, the son of God. Jesus never said he was the Son of, or part of God. Never. The distinction is well documented…

    Jesus prayed accordingly:

    OUR father who art in HEAVEN
    (Jesus wasn’t in heaven)
    Hollowed by THY name.
    (Not Jesus’s name, Gods name)
    THY kingdom come.
    (Not Jesus’s kingdom, but Gods)
    THY will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.
    (Not Jesus’s will, but Gods will)
    Give US this day our daily bread
    (God would not need bread)
    and Forgive US OUR tresspasses,
    (Jesus puts himself with the people and God would not sin)
    as we forgive those who trespass against us.
    Lead US not into temptation
    (God is free of temptation, man is not)
    and deliver US from evil
    (God cannot be tainted with evil)
    For THYNE is the Kingdom, the power and the Glory
    (Not Jesus’s kingdom, power or glory, but Gods)
    For ever and ever Amen.

    Jesus when he prayed this, seems very clearly to be worshiping a higher power. The distance between JEusus and God seems quite far to me.

    christianity is a great a religion, but official ‘todays’ christianity, IMO, is mostly about what other others perscribe of Jesus, as is the case with the ressurection.

    I also hold that God has laid a challenge to mankind about the veracity of faith, but in the form of a positive challenge, primarilly over a negative one, as well as providing (positivism) knowledge no human could have known at the time in scripture. Is proving a negative reasonable?

  9. lwtc247 said

    P.S. Invisible_Pink_Unicorn is automatically disproveable as it’s logically contradictory to have something thats pink yet invisible. But of course, the intent of the question resides.

  10. lwtc247 said

    “Whilst I risk offending Muslims as to suggest it’s another ‘brand’ of Christianity,” – there is no offence, as your meaning seems clear (to me at least) and that is Islam parallels Christiantiy (errrm.. I mean the teachings of Jesus, not ‘post-Jesus common Christanity’) And it’s true. Same message, different prophet. However the hands of man make it appear different. One exception is perhaps the prohibition of alcohol.Muslims believe Islamic scripture escapted the corruption of man.

    If you submit yourself to God. You too are a Muslim whether or not (but so much better if…) you follow the teachings of Jesus.

    I’ve heard (but never counted myself) that the prophet Jesus is mentioned more times in the Quran than any other prophet. The Prophet Muhammad(saw) is reported to have held him in the utmost regard.

  11. lwtc247 said

    Whilst I’m at it, What’s so hard about death? God has promised it upon every living being of his, and bestowal of life is less that an bewiched twiddle of the ‘nose’ of God. Death/life and ressurection are only problematic of ones mind excluses divine power from its manefestaion.

  12. StefZ said

    “If you submit yourself to God. You too are a Muslim whether or not (but so much better if…) you follow the teachings of Jesus.”

    that reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Catholic priest about the status of people who lived decent lives but were not Christian. My question was would they be ‘saved’. The answer was…

    – If they lived a decent life and hadn’t heard the Christian ‘Word’ they’d be OK

    However

    – if they HAD heard the Word, rejected it, but carried on living a decent life they’d be screwed

    How prevalent that point of view is amongst mainstream Christians I wouldn’t dare to guess

    but I’m not entirely convinced that JC himself would have signed up to it

  13. StefZ said

    “The funny thing is, I’m not suggesting at all someone prove something incredible didn’t happen 2,000 years ago. Actually it’s the writer of this section of the bible who is asking people then and indeed 1,900 years down the line to believe it.”

    and, of course, people have been taking issue with the resurrection claim for 2,000 years – particularly Jews; including Saint Paul himself (Paul’s conversion and the consequences really do seem to be ‘miraculous’)

    The Talmud includes very explicit allegations of fraud and speculation about JC’s probable fate and I also recall that this little tome was quite popular a while back…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passover_Plot

  14. lwtc247 said

    According to my understanding of Islam, is that the only sin that God will not forgive* is that of Shirk – The placing of something/someone on equal or higher status then God. Rejection of God automatically encompasses some other philosophy (personal or mainstream) which I guess means: leading a good life without that good life being for the sake of God is meaningless and holds no water in Gods eyes, and wont help one be saved.

    At this point I have to say predicting/interpreting God on issues in which aren’t explicitly stated in scripture is probably bonkers, as to enter the mind of God simply isn’t possible, so I may be talking utter rubbish here, all I can do is use my limited knowledge and human logic – and appeal to the same things belonging to the readers here too}

    However, it seems, the sin can be forgiven if one embraces God, and makes a declaration of faith/belief (publicly is best). But if this declaration is made when one knows one is about to die, then it doesn’t “work”. This is detailed in the story of Moses and the drowned Pharaoh (Possibly Ramesses II).

    And Actually that Catholic priests answer was surprising as Paul (Saul of Tarsus) brutalized Christians in the immediate post-Jesus period. Paul rejected God but Christianity canonized him, so how could Saint Paul be in eternal sin?

    BUT…
    I think Islam states all people have had their prophets (possibly because of the link to Adam), but that revelation/prophecy would have been corrupted along the way. I guess some Javanese natives who’s monotheistic teachings eventually skewed into tree worshipping may still be saved because they are adhering to what the monotheistic prophecy mutated into.

    One again, Muslims commonly say “Only God Knows” and Christians “God works in mysterious ways” when one tries to guess the fate of a person after death, especially when one has done questionable deeds.

    It is very interesting that the question ‘I don’t consider myself as believing in God, but if I leave a good life could I still be saved?’ seems quite common. I always feel when I hear such a question/statement, that what we are hearing the whisper of belief in the heart of a person against the conscious 5 sense mind’s shouting throng trying to deny belief – possibly I guess because of a dislike that to open ones heart would see one having to undertake laborious ritual, to prove ones faith to God.

    I don’t know if you feel that way StefZ, but that’s what goes through my mind on hearing it.

    My personal opinion is that JC would also say the way is always open to God / redemption until the last moment of ones life

  15. lwtc247 said

    The * bit was supposed to say…
    * It’s quite posible that this sin is the one unforgiveable sin that that Christians have, but was altered by the revisionists not least outright adopted by the Council of Nicea (I suspect encouraged by wealthy infintrators) so that it would fit into the construct of the trinity.

  16. Alex Fear said

    Wow, I go away for a day and you guys get right into the spirit of the debate.

    Touching on some of the stuff that’s been discussed.

    @Stef, nothing wrong with you comments as I see it. Judeo-Christian is a good enough term to describe the architecture of the Western world, it’s laws, it’s take on Jesus and such.

    @LW, I can’t really speak for Islam, I only know some things about the faith. I know that the Quran also contains details of the virgin birth.

    One point I must make is that I’m posting the secret to destroying Christianity, not gnosticism, mormonism, latter day saints, Judaism, Islam or any other related religion.

    Of course it’s entirely possible to take Jesus’ core teachings and live by them (even found civilisations on them) without believing in the ressurection. The principle in following Christ is that he is actually risen and alive. So when it comes to the fundamentals (not fundamentalist) of the Christian belief, I’ll stand by the fact that if there’s no resurrection as Christians claim, then there is no purpose in Christianity (as in following Christ).

    So on such a simple and ludicrous claim, Christianity itself should be easy for any anti-theistic scientist to defeat without having to even discuss science, biology or history.

    On forgivable and unforgivable sins, I think it is not altogether clear. For a majority of people you can make an educated guess on their after-death status, but there is certainly a grey area and I don’t think anyone who really has studied the subject would try to put some kind of formula on it. I am reminded of the second thief on the cross who begged Jesus’ pardon.

    The ‘good life’ thing is common. The problem is ‘good’ is a subjective word, and most often the judgement of what is ‘good’ and what is ‘bad’ falls down to the beholder.

    Not many people claim to be bad people. Most people consider themselves to be somewhere in between, but overall they think of themselves as leaning towards ‘good’. Hence when they do something wrong, or do something which will benefit them with no consideration of the wider picture or the consequences for others, they tend to claim extenuating circumstances, it was ‘out of character’ or that there was some fundamental principle which justified the non-consideration of others. Rarely is it because ‘I am a bad person who was thinking of myself’.

    Interesting to note: Jesus once scolded a man for calling him “good teacher”.

    I may follow this post up at some point, it’s clear that as cults and religions go, there’s no worse PR than what the Bible is to Christianity.

  17. Gayle said

    Alex, before the subject is dropped: I was curious how my Christian friends would answer this post and so I’ve asked several (Catholic, Lutheran, and Church of Christ) and have been pleasantly surprised to find out that they don’t think it threatening to faith at all to believe in the physical resurrection. They are in total agreement with St. Paul’s words and think you are being overly pessimistic in saying this verse would end faith. Maybe we are just provincial here.

  18. StefZ said

    “It is very interesting that the question ‘I don’t consider myself as believing in God, but if I leave a good life could I still be saved?’ seems quite common. I always feel when I hear such a question/statement, that what we are hearing the whisper of belief in the heart of a person against the conscious 5 sense mind’s shouting throng trying to deny belief – possibly I guess because of a dislike that to open ones heart would see one having to undertake laborious ritual, to prove ones faith to God.

    I don’t know if you feel that way StefZ, but that’s what goes through my mind on hearing it.”

    I’m an agnostic who freely admits that the level of order and suggestions of *cough* complex design in the natural world indicate that contemporary science doesn’t offer anywhere near all the answers

    but that’s nowhere near enough to even start accepting the idea of physical resurrection, the Holy Trinity, out of date prohibitions on what to eat and other forms of behaviour, and all the rest. I also have a fundamental issue with the paradox of the main theistic religions which preach free will and personal accountability but at the same time teach that the future is essentially pre-ordained through prophecy

    I believe that the God who (may have) created this complex, wonderful universe would be more logical than that

    I do, however, acknowledge that what I personally believe to be decent and indecent behaviour is largely underpinned and derived from the Abrahamic religions. So the question as to whether I would get a ‘pass’ or not if I lived in accordance with my conscience does interest me – for curiousity’s sake and because the answers are sometimes surprisingly in contrast with the philosophy taught by JC and others

  19. mattghg said

    Alex,

    Good post; it’s important to remind us of what’s important.

    lwtc247,

    When did Jesus every say his teachings are relient upon his death?

    Check out Matthew 16:21-23 and Mark 8:31-33. Here’s the filmscript version:
    JESUS: I must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and then I must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
    PETER: Never, Lord! This shall never happen to you!
    JESUS: Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.

    So at the moment Peter denies the need for Jesus to die (and be raised again to life), he speaks for Satan! That seems pretty clear from where I sit.

    Jesus never said he was the Son of, or part of God. Never

    John 8:56-58:
    JESUS: Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.
    JEWS: You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham!
    JESUS: I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!
    [Jews try to stone Jesus]

    (Exodus 3:13-14:
    MOSES: Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?
    GOD: I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’)

    John 10:30-39:
    JESUS: I and the Father are one.
    [Jews try to stone Jesus again]
    JESUS: I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?
    JEWS: We are not stoning you for any of these, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
    JESUS: Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
    [Jews try to seize Jesus]

    Matthew 26:62-65; Mark 14:61-64:
    CAIAPHAS: I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.
    JESUS: Yes, it is as you say. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
    CAIAPHAS: He has spoken blasphemy!

    (Daniel 7:13-14:
    DANIEL: In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.)

    Everyone else,

    Sorry for taking things slightly off topic there…

  20. lwtc247 said

    Cheers mattghg and StefZ, I’ll try and follow-up tomorrow.

  21. lwtc247 said

    mattghg – sorry I’m late replying and thanks for the biblical records.

    I believe the direct revelations of god have first and foremost a literal meaning. Sadly the Biblical text have not escaped the alternation of man. Many biblical passages are by way of anecdotes and parables. I have great difficulty in taking them literally. Yes I’m bending them to my perception, but I believe I am justified in doing so. I went off on a tangent earlier and regret doing so, as I didn’t want to create diverging tension. Sorry if that’s what I did.

    But I would like to mention just a little bit

    As for the first Jesus quote, I can equally well interpret the retrospective polymorphized translation and revision of what Jesus is supposed to have said as meaning appeared to be killed, or his prophecy brought to an end and the raised to life being that of ‘life on this earth’ on hold (until his return). Such an interpretation.

    As for John 8:56-58: I read “I am” as meaning the revealed words of God. This is oft said of the Prophets are the embodiment of God. Although a very precarious thing to say, it is not meant in the tangible sense, rather in the exemplarily fashion.

    John 10:30-39: “I and the Father are one…” Again I read that as inseparable submission of Jesus to God not that Jesus was a physical part of God. Do remember that all of these supposed quotes were written well after his apparent death, have undergone many different repackagings and not originally in English. I really doubt that the Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew versions would support such literal first person descriptions. Then there is the utter rejection by the Jews that Jesus the Messiah had in fact come down for his prophecy. Those Jews who levy gross accusations of charlatan and magician upon Jesus would NOT have passively allowed signs of Jesus’s prophecy to persist. What better way to discredit Jesus than to cast him, a man, as God?

    Well I appreciate the effort you put in to challenging my earlier statements, as I appreciate, and of course respect others who may think it’s me that’s wrong. I would debate the rest of the quotes in a similar fashion, but as you identified, it is going off topic and this much is sufficient I feel.

    It would be great to research it to DEFINITEVLEY find out rather than relying on the what we regard as strong perceived chances but alas the large amount of time elapsed from the time of Jesus to the transcription of the Gospels (those that weren’t rejected) means accuracy of his actual words urges caution, which actually can be used to counter my belief that he DIDN’T say them!

  22. pat sulpizio said

    You have a one verse, a little bit of information, and are not aware of the message in its full context.
    The bible is essentially about Jesus and His love for you. Man, though is a lover of self, ignorant, prideful, angry and full of shame and insolence.
    Instead of just mere talk, mockery and discussing subjects that you are not well schooled in, try reading and seeking the truth. Jesus promises those ‘who seek me will find me.” “Draw near to him and he will draw near to you.” Read the bible for yourself. Truth stands on it own and will not be destroyed by mere mortal, decaying, slanderous men.

  23. pat sulpizio said

    You have a one verse, a little bit of information, and are not aware of the message in its full context.
    The bible is essentially about Jesus and His love for you. Man, though is a lover of self, ignorant, prideful, angry and full of shame and insolence.
    Instead of just mere talk, mockery and discussing subjects that you are not well schooled in, try reading and seeking the truth. Jesus promises those ‘who seek me will find me.” “Draw near to him and he will draw near to you.” Read the bible for yourself. Truth stands on it own and will not be destroyed by mere mortal, decaying slanderous men.

  24. This is simply superb info. Thank you

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: